Accomplished professionals who want to advance their career but feel they have outgrown the traditional two-year MBA—and are unsure whether an EMBA would be the right fit—actually have a range of alternatives they might not be aware of. In this episode of The mbaMission Podcast, hosts Harold Simansky and Jeremy Shinewald are joined by mbaMission Managing Director Debbie Choy to discuss why mid-career leaders are increasingly drawn to immersive, one-year options such as the MSx program at the Stanford Graduate School of Business (GSB) and the MIT Sloan Fellows MBA program. Harold, Jeremy, and Debbie explore who these programs are designed for, how they differ from EMBA and traditional MBA programs, and why they can serve as a transformative pause point for seasoned professionals ready to rethink their leadership, career trajectory, and long-term impact.
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Table of Contents
Harold Simansky: I’m joined by mbaMission Managing Director Debbie, who has helped countless senior professionals navigate their next big move through these programs. Together, we’ll explore how each school helps experienced leaders sharpen their purpose, expand their global reach, and redefine what’s next in their careers. These are not traditional two-year MBAs. They’re immersive, one-year experiences that blend academic rigor with personal reflection, designed to help seasoned professionals sharpen their leadership vision, expand global perspective, and reimagine what’s next. Whether you’re an engineer stepping into general management, a founder seeking renewal, or a senior leader preparing for your next act, this conversation unpacks how each program approaches this pivotal moment and what kind of leader thrives in each.
Jeremy Shinewald: So great to be here. Obviously, my co-host—or actually I’m your co-host—Harold Simansky. I’m Jeremy Shinewald. We’re here in beautiful San Francisco, and you can see it out the back. And when you’re in San Francisco, you have to have a Stanford GSB grad on the podcast: Debbie Choy, mbaMission Managing Director. What is this, like your 14th year or something? Thirteenth year? We’re going to go with 13th year [with mbaMission]. There you go.
Debbie Choy: Yeah.
Jeremy Shinewald: Thanks so much for joining us. And we came here to ensure that we had West Coast representation on our podcast.
Debbie Choy: Yes, that’s very important.
Inside the Stanford MSX Program
Jeremy Shinewald: So where do we begin? I guess we’re here to talk about mid-career options for people. I think the one that applicants are most familiar with is probably the MSx program. [gestures toward Debbie] I know you’ve had a lot of success with the MSx program over the years.
Harold Simansky: And an MIT graduate! [indicates self] MIT Sloan Fellows, which we can debate as this podcast goes on.
Jeremy Shinewald: Can we say these two are vying for supremacy, for lack of a better word? For appropriate brand supremacy in this space? We have a guest, so we’re going to talk about the MSx program first. So, yeah, tell us a little bit about your experience with it, about the type of applicants that apply to it. One thing I think we should talk about is maybe the type of applicants who don’t apply to it who should.
Debbie Choy: Yeah, I love the Stanford MSx program. I think it’s one of the most overlooked programs, especially for my mid-career clients. They [the MSx program] are looking for a minimum of eight years of full-time work experience, and I think MIT Sloan Fellows is looking for ten years.
Harold Simansky: That’s right, a little a little bit longer. That’s right.
Debbie Choy: Yeah, so a slight difference there. But the average tenure at Stanford MSx is actually 13 years. And I have a lot of clients who, they’re pretty tenured, they’re managing teams, managing projects, and they’re asking me, they sort of feel like they have missed the boat on the two-year program. And they’re looking at the MSx program, they’re asking me, “Is this a fit for me?” You know, what is this program about? And I love when they ask me that question because I go, “Let me tell you about this program.” It’s a much smaller program, so it’s 80 to 90 people. It is really tailored for mid-career professionals, meaning that it’s one year instead of two years. It’s still a full-time, immersive program. It’s accelerated. That means that you are streamlining the core classes. Half of your classes are core, and then the other half you get to take electives, which to my mind is really the exciting part of your MBA experience because you get to really curate and take the classes that are relevant to your career goals. So I think the MSx program is a fantastic program. I would recommend it for anyone who has at least eight years of full-time work experience.
Jeremy Shinewald: I just want to accentuate one or two things about the programs to make sure they’re abundantly clear to our many viewers. One is—you said this, but just to just to put an exclamation point on it—it’s a full-time program. It’s a one-year, full-time program. So it’s for mid-career professionals, but it’s not like an EMBA, where you’re going to spend two days on the weekend and then spend a week, I don’t know, in the middle of December or something like that. This is a full-time commitment for you. The other piece, of course, [is that] it’s taught through the GSB, but it’s not an MBA. You’re getting a master’s degree, but you’re not getting an MBA, which is important. I think considering you’re a mid-career professional, that’s okay. You’re probably not there for, I don’t know, for the three letters on your resume. You’re there for the education, and the education is a management education.
The MIT Sloan Fellows Experience
Harold Simansky: Debbie, I also really love the Stanford MSx program. And I really love the MIT LGO [Leaders for Global Operations] program. And let me tell you why. An EMBA, what it basically does, it accelerates your career. It really keeps you on a trajectory and basically gives you the skills, particularly the leadership skills, to sort of keep you going and to really move forward. I think these programs are a little bit different in the sense of they give you the jump. It’s almost like they’re a springboard, where you take a pause, you sort of almost answer some very existential questions. It’s an immersive program. And we don’t just mean for yourself, we mean frequently for your family. At this point, it’s later in your life, and you’re really ready to say, “Okay, I am ready to bounce forward to get going to really upskill in every single way,” including sort of your thinking about your future, thinking about your family’s future, where you want to be. Honestly, I tell folks, [with an] EMBA, you’re going to be on a wonderful trajectory, very clear. [With the] MIT LGO, it may be a little bit less clear where you’re going, but you are going to the moon. I think that that’s really it. And like you, I love it. Not for everybody. Long conversations about the commitment it takes. I think at the same point, though, I also talk to a lot of people who’ve never heard of it, and I say, “This is perfect for you.” And to be honest with you, it’s probably perfect for a lot of people that just don’t know about it.
Who These Programs Are Best For
Debbie Choy: Yeah, yeah. And I think for people who are able to uproot their family and move to Stanford or Boston for a year, I think that’s phenomenal. That really gives you that space and that time to—like you said, Harold—think about where you want to pivot to next. I think for folks who are very rooted in where they are and they’re not close to these two places, the EMBA or even the part-time program might be a better option, [people] who maybe don’t want to leave their job for a full year. There is an opportunity cost, and that’s why they’ve really tailored it to one year and compressed that experience.
Harold Simansky: Right. Yeah, absolutely. I think what’s also nice about these programs—EMBA certainly, but MSx or MIT LGO even more so—is you take your resume, you call them up, you show them your resume, you then start having some conversations, and they are very clear in terms of whether you are or are not a candidate, because these are very impressive people who go to these programs. They have already been very, very successful.
Just to circle back to one point that I also found really interesting about MSx, and it’s sort of if you dig into the numbers, it actually takes people a little bit of time to find jobs. It’s sort of funny, meaning, if, I don’t know, out of business school, you’re talking about three months, some of these people take six months. And that’s a reflection of the fact they’re going in there being very thoughtful, [have] already been very, very successful, and they really start thinking to themselves, “Okay, I’m planning my career for the next 20 years. What do I really want to do? What is really going to get me excited?” And that I think really speaks to who goes there more than somebody who’s like on this treadmill, who’s like, “Okay, I got to keep on going, keep on going, keep on going.”
Debbie Choy: And that’s one thing that is reflected in the MSx application, because they have an extra question that asks you about your career goals. Because you have such a short time on campus, they really want you to be thoughtful about what you want to gain coming into the school and what exactly do you want to do after the school. Yeah, so you do have access to career resources at the career center at Stanford. So, same resources there, but you don’t have the same recruiting opportunities there. Because if you’re looking at a mid-career transition, very few employers are going to hire armies of folks. So you do have to do your own networking; you do have to do your own job search.
Comparing MSx and MIT Sloan Programs
Jeremy Shinewald: So let’s talk about some other similarities between the MBA program and the MSx program.
Debbie Choy: The most important selling point, I think, is that you have the same professors, same teaching methods. You have access to the same electives, both at the GSB and also at other Stanford schools. You have the same access to student clubs. You are living side by side alongside the MBA students. So, beautiful residences and everything. So, yeah, a lot of these similarities—you’re essentially getting the same experience. There are some differences, like what I highlighted.
Harold Simansky: Again, sort of coming back to almost the structure of the program in a very physical way, you’re at the point of a career also where you are very open to meeting other people. You’re very open to it, and you find it interesting, I think, almost in a way that younger folks do. And again, I’m a sort of middle-aged guy, so I’m looking at it maybe a little judgmentally, but the reality is you’re at a point of your life where you just start even being more curious. So at a place like Stanford, again, a place like MIT, it’s like, honestly, it’s a candy store. And I keep on coming back to that analogy. You start going across campus, you start doing other things, you start talking to folks in the medical school and the environment school, the public policy school, and you’re just excited about everything. And candidly, the workload just isn’t the same. It simply isn’t. And part of it is, it’s you, part of it is actually expectations. So that really gives you the opportunity to just play around [with] it or meet somebody on the playground. And it gets just very, very exciting.
Jeremy Shinewald: So let’s talk about some of the differences, sort of compare and contrast. I mean, you don’t have to explicitly, but let’s talk about the offerings at MIT Sloan. It’s great. I’ve got the GSB and I’ve got Sloan on either side. [gestures to Debbie and Harold] Maybe I should just bow out and walk out of the room here. So, Harold, talk about the one-year options, the mid-career options, at MIT Sloan.
Harold Simansky: Yeah, sure. A little bit older, generally speaking, a little bit more international. At the same point, then, folks who are really looking to pivot in one way or another. And what I mean by that is they could frequently be tech people, and it sort of cuts both ways, because they’ve been probably been in tech for a little while, and they themselves see tech world changing. They go to MIT, and suddenly they start like, “Okay, I’m starting to understand the ins and outs of tech in a way that I didn’t before.” Or at that point, also the pharma, the health tech industry, is getting just really, really exciting. So maybe they were entrepreneurs, but something a little bit more tech focused. And now, again, the biotech capital of the world is Kendall Square at MIT. So they have that opportunity as well. And again, it’s just, I can’t stress this enough, the integration that they’re seeing across campus, whether at Stanford, whether at MIT, with the two-year program. I think that that’s just what drives things.
Listen, I’ll also say one other thing. An application to a two-year MBA program is very aspirational. It talks about sort of what you want to do, sort of big stories about the future. By the time you get to Sloan Fellows or MSx, and we talk about a few similar programs, you’ve done it. I mean, honestly, you’ve done it.
Jeremy Shinewald: You have to be a very strong professional to be in the program. Yeah. So you’ve kind of arrived.
Harold Simansky: Exactly. At that point, you’ve arrived, and everybody else around you has arrived, and they sort of really struggle with very specific issues that they’ve actually solved here. Again, no hand waving. They get there, and they are with other very successful people. And that is really just, like I said, rocket fuel for their future.
Jeremy Shinewald: Question for both of you guys. How often is geography destiny? Like, how often do you have people who apply to both of these programs? Because they—this sounds like a negative connotation, but I mean this flatly—they uproot your life if you’re not [already] in one of those two cities. So, how often when you have an MSx applicant is that person applying to MIT Sloan, or vice versa?
Debbie Choy: That’s a good question. I actually, when I have clients who meet the criteria of both programs, I tell them, please apply to both.
Harold Simansky: I do myself.
Debbie Choy: Yeah. You are maximizing your chances. And—especially for my international clients—moving to Boston is about the same as moving to Palo Alto in terms of distance. For clients that are already rooted in one city, like Boston, I would say, aim for Sloan Fellows first. But it’s not a bad idea to live in Palo Alto for a year. But I do see that a lot of my clients who are interested in biotech, who have that healthcare, want to be close to that MIT engineering school, for instance, they do choose MIT. And then folks who are more entrepreneurial, who are more interested in the big tech, want to be close to Silicon Valley, they do choose Stanford. So that’s kind of, if they get into both programs, I see them kind of split up that way. What do you think, Harold?
Harold Simansky: No, listen, I think that’s right. I think there’s a subtle difference here in the sense of honestly, you can get to MIT, you can get to Cambridge, you can put down some roots in a very, I would say, almost natural, financially secure way. If you get to Palo Alto—and God bless Palo Alto, one of the greatest places in the world to live—you’re living sort of this dream on the Stanford campus. Amazing. There’s nothing about it that’s not amazing. At that point, you say, “Let’s stay here.” And at that point, not so easy to do. And because your child is going to move schools, for example. You’re going to move. I mean, Debbie, many people can’t afford Palo Alto, so where are they going? They’re going not one degree away from them, [but] two or three degrees away from them. And the reality is, I think, a little bit more disruption to your life, but in a good way, too.
Debbie Choy: Yeah. Well, if they get jobs within tech, the salary will enable them to stay.
Harold Simansky: No, no, that’s true.
Debbie Choy: But that’s a good question.
Diverse Applicant Profiles and Success Stories
Harold Simansky: So I think that’s a consideration. And again, to come back to this, I don’t want to keep on sharpening this edge here. It is a big decision that frequently goes beyond your own considerations. It simply does—a different stage of your life. If I think to myself, who goes where, again, I think it’s somebody who is a little bit more mature in their career, or just a little bit, I’ll say, more mature in their career, who is going to MIT, and for all—I would say—more industry-focused reasons. For somebody who’s going out to Stanford, I think it’s almost a change in viewpoint. I think it’s almost a change, again, this existential question of “Okay, I’m ready to become a superhero,” as Stanford itself describes it. Folks who are going to spend a little bit more time thinking about “Okay, where in this world do I really want to play?”
Jeremy Shinewald: Tell us about an applicant or two of yours that went to the MSx or to the MIT Sloan program, just to make it real for someone who’s listening.
Debbie Choy: Sure. I’ve got one of my favorite clients, really interesting guy, entrepreneur, zero entrepreneur from South America, and bootstrapped a few companies and sold companies as well. And he got to a point in his career where he said, “Look, my business is in good hands.” And then his current business co-founders, taking care of it. He’s thinking, “I want to take the next step in my career and start building multinational companies.” And so he applied to both Stanford MSx as well as Sloan Fellows, and he got into both. And he ultimately, not because of my persuasion or anything, he ultimately chose Stanford because of that entrepreneurial ecosystem where he could meet his next co-founder, where he could meet investors, and really build that next large company. So I’m excited to hear what he comes up with next.
Harold Simansky: Yeah. No, of course. I have a guy who is similar in a couple different ways. He’s a guy, very successful, complete up from the bootstraps, incredibly poor family. But things had never, I would say, coalesced around any specific piece of the world. He was an entrepreneur in real estate, he was an entrepreneur in the world of green, he was an entrepreneur in sort of this very interesting finance piece, very successful. But at the end of the day, he was like, “Okay, I’ve tried many different things. I can be successful. I can be an entrepreneur. That’s not the thing. I really now have to really start narrowing down what exactly—where I want to be.” Maybe that’s a better way of putting it. In which industry do I really want to focus? He’d fallen in love with green. So at that point, could have gone either way, admittedly, but for him, sustainability, again, he was going to take all of his powers, go into the world of sustainability. So Stanford made more sense; got into MIT LGO. It was a little bit of a question.
And the real reality for him is—listen, Stanford, when it comes to sustainability, huge in all sorts of different ways. And I think this is what makes MSx so nice. Stanford is doing sustainability in all sorts of different ways. It’s doing it from an engineering perspective, it’s doing it from a public policy perspective, it’s certainly doing it from a business perspective. So he’s like, “I want to really push into that field again, across many different dimensions.” Also, I mean, again, you have to say it. I’ve said it a thousand times, but I’ll share it again because it’s a cute story, in the sense of he had a 2-year-old, his wife was pregnant, he looked at what’s happening in Cambridge, he gets to Stanford, townhouse next to the daycare. And it’s like, again, you just can’t beat it. I mean, for him, it was a wonderful story. And also, listen, some people need the credential. He sort of bounced around colleges. He needed the credential.
Jeremy Shinewald: We’re talking about a lot of he in this conversation here. And that’s fine. And I do think these programs skew more male than traditional MBA programs. I should have some stats to back that up. That is, I believe, accurate, but please do check the class profiles on that one. But tell us about a woman who you’ve helped get into MSx or MIT Sloan.
Debbie Choy: Yeah, fantastic candidate. She was a project manager in a tech firm, and she was managing projects and really doing well in her career, but really aspired to be a business leader, to be an executive of a tech company in the future. So she needed that business credential. And the MSx program was the perfect fit for her. I think she also had a very creative background. She came from kind of a creative education. And so Stanford, the way that it thinks about business leadership, but also incorporating interdisciplinary aspects like design and everything, that was a perfect fit for her. So yeah, she also had a young child, 2-year-old, which for a mother going through the MSx program—I mean, that was not easy. So kudos to her. And that one year was fantastic, a great fit.
Harold Simansky: I have an MIT LGO, got into both programs. She ended up at MIT. I think a really interesting story, as well as sort of a classic story for this program. She was a CIO, chief investment officer, at a number of finance companies. Brilliant woman. She had been a masterful CIO. She had proven herself over and over again. Two things were happening from her perspective. First was just from her personal perspective, investments, she was starting to sort of burn out on the notion. She really wanted to conquer finance problems that are a little bit more impact focused. So, in particular, issues around the underbanked populations in some of these very poor countries. So she wanted to really explore that, as well as this notion here: She was always the number two, to be honest with you, CIO. And she just wanted, it was time for her to say, “I’m ready to be CEO.” She was ready to be a CEO. That’s the bottom line. So she took no finance classes at MIT Sloan. I used to have lunch with her. Amazing woman, took no finance classes. It was about leadership, it was about thinking around finance in a much different way. I mean, really a home run. Goes back to India, and again, things start really accelerating fast for her.
Jeremy Shinewald: So we’ve dug in pretty deeply on the on the MIT Sloan program and on the Stanford MSx program. What other options are there?
Harold Simansky: Sure. There’s also the London Business School Sloan Fellows program. There’s a reason why they’re both called Sloan, which if someone wants to spend 30 minutes on the phone with me doing a free consult, I will tell you who Alfred Sloan is, why he has a number of programs named after him. But again, let’s put that aside. There’s also the USC [University of Southern California] IBEAR Program. USC is a wonderful school, truly a unique program, very internationally focused. And that’s a program that many people haven’t heard of, but for the right person, it’s actually a fantastic program.
Jeremy Shinewald: Just to accentuate that, the Sloan program in London, very similar to the MIT Sloan program in Cambridge.
Harold Simansky: That’s right. A little bit older, a little bit of an older student, obviously different, pulling from a different geography, but for all intents and purposes, very, very similar program.
Debbie Choy: The IBEAR program, I think, is really fantastic for folks who are rooted in Southern California. Yeah. And with an eye on international, an international career, especially as it relates to Asia and across the Pacific. So I think that’s also a great program that a lot of people don’t often talk about.
Harold Simansky: That’s right. And what I find interesting about that program, there happens to be a lot of doctors in it. I’m not quite sure what the straight line is. Maybe it’s just the fact that Southern California, big medical community. I guess you could say that anywhere, but I always found that interesting. I also found the fact that people are really, really internationally focused in terms of looking outward, in terms of the US outward, as opposed to some of the other programs are more, they’re bringing the world into their program. Listen, I think really one of the considerations is always EMBA versus a full-year, again, mid-career program. And we also have to be quite honest, it is a huge financial consideration to go to a one-year mid-career program. To my mind, I think practically everyone pays for it themselves, right? It’s a big check.
Debbie Choy: Yeah. So here’s what I tell my clients: An EMBA is your company’s investment in you.
Harold Simansky: Yes.
Debbie Choy: A MSx or MIT Sloan Fellows is your investment in your career.
Harold Simansky: That’s great. I’m going to steal that.
Jeremy Shinewald: That’s fantastic. I’m going to use that for sure. Put that on our internal Slack.
Harold Simansky: Yeah, yeah. That’s great.
Jeremy Shinewald: It’s almost like there’s probably a continuum. It’s like, okay, you’re a mid-career and you’re looking at EMBA programs, but if you want something different that’s full-time, these programs work. And it’s almost like the version of that for earlier career people—like if you’re just trying to have a more abbreviated experience but still get the education—is there are one-year programs at the MBA level that are offered by different schools. And the European programs tend to skew a little bit older, INSEAD, IMD in particular. A lot of people haven’t heard of IMD, but it almost functions as an EMBA, as like a full-time, one-year EMBA program, and it does skew older. It’s not quite the MSx or the Sloan program, but it’s sort of maybe one shift earlier in your career if you’re looking for a one-year program.
Debbie Choy: Kellogg has an accelerated one-year program as well. It does require you to have certain business background. And I think the age is a little bit younger. So I think for somebody who’s wondering which of these programs are the right fit for me, think about the geography. Where do you want to root your career long term? Think about the median age of the incoming class and how you’re going to be able to contribute as well as hold your hand to the candle in the classroom. Right? So I think those are two.
Harold Simansky: Right. A quick commercial here. As usual. We just did a podcast on EMBA programs with our colleague Julie-Anne, and we’ll give you a lot more specific information about EMBA programs, which is a very big consideration. One thing I will say—and I’m not quite sure I should put it this way—an EMBA program can be a slog, to be perfectly honest with you. You’re balancing not just your work, your family life as well. You’re traveling, you’re doing your schoolwork, and it’s hard. As opposed to MIT Sloan, MIT LGO, IBEAR, whatever it is, it’s a wonderful, life-changing experience. Everyone’s sort of, it’s a happy place, to be perfectly honest with you, which sometimes more important, honestly, sometimes more important, sometimes less important, just where you are in your career. In this particular case, I think it’s really important, by all means, [spend] 30 minutes with us. And I think one of the reasons is there’s a nuance to deciding between an EMBA and a sort of mid-career one-year program, MIT Sloan or Sloan Fellows or MSx. There is nuance there. Most people are thinking about realistically an EMBA or one of these one-year programs. And there’s so much that goes into that decision. Let us help you start thinking about it in maybe a way you never thought about it before.
Navigating the Application Process
Debbie Choy: Yeah. And also putting together the applications. What the different schools are looking for, it’s nuanced, and you can’t just cut and paste.
Jeremy Shinewald: And I would say one other thing. If you’re a mid-career, you probably haven’t done a lot of written or verbal self-exploration for a long time. And so the execution piece of this can be quite challenging for some. So certainly take us up on that for that free half-hour consultation, and know that we’ve got a very experienced team here who, whether it’s MIT Sloan or Stanford MSx or both, because you’ve both helped them on many. We’ve got experienced professionals who can walk you through this and make your life a lot more efficient. Because, as you said, a lot of people are mid-career, they’ve got careers, they’ve got families. They want to make their lives a little easier. Thank you so much for being here. [to Harold] I always say thank you for hosting, for allowing me on your show. [to Debbie] Thank you for being here in your town.
Debbie Choy: Please come more often!
Harold Simansky: Thanks for being here.
